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Livingston: So the fraud solution was a combination of humans and software Levchin: Depending on who you ask. I think Sarah feels that it s probably more

humans and the coders think it s more technology. It s one of those things where, in the end, fraud is so nondeterministic that you need a human or a quantum computer to look at it and sort of make a final decision, because, in the end, it s people s money. You don t really want some computer saying, $2.00 for you, nothing for you. You need a human with a brain to say, Hmm. This looks like fraud, but I really don t think it is. Then there are various processes and exception handling where you say, Even though it s fraud, you don t handle it because . . . We got really good at it later on. Initially, we sorted things by loss, but then we started sorting things by expected loss. We d estimate the probability of losses programmatically, and then we d get the amount of money in question calculated, figure out the expected loss, and then sort the cases for the investigators by expected loss. The investigators would only have to deal with the top 5 percent. You d never go through the entire queue of things for them to judge, but, because they judge things pretty quickly, they would go through half the queue, and they would inevitably start with the ones we thought were the highest possible loss. So, the highest probable, the highest possible. That was one of the techniques that we used to guide development.

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Livingston: Were any of your competitors doing anything similar Levchin: We kept the stuff under wraps for a very long time. We never really showed IGOR to anyone. We never talked about it in the press. I was definitely very paranoid. Initially, when we built it, we had a conference room where there was the IGOR terminal, and people would go in there, use it, and leave. There were no other copies available. Eventually, various federal and state authorities wanted to use it too, because they started to see that we were getting pretty good at this stuff. We would invite them in, and they would have to go into the room and use it and leave. They couldn t take it with them, couldn t print. Livingston: Did you patent this technique Levchin: I didn t really want to patent it because, for one, I don t like software

patents, and, two, if you patent it, you make it public. Even if you don t know someone s infringing, they will still be getting the benefit. Instead, we just chose to keep it a trade secret and not show it to anyone. After a while, IGOR became well known to the company, like all the other tools that we had built early on. We had patented some of it, and some of it we said, OK, it s open for wide use now. There s still a whole bunch of tools that they are using today that are not public. They don t talk about it much at all, and I think that s a good thing.

So I just quit consulting at SAIC and just kind of dove into it trying to make it as user friendly as possible, and just to get out there and see what would happen I thought maybe I could sell 100 You know, if that I just didn t know what the potential was I knew there was potential, I just had no idea what it was Smolin: And when did you first start to sell it Carlton: June, 2001 Smolin: 2001, so it s a 6-year-old product at the moment Carlton: Right Smolin: And who buys it Carlton: Well, anybody that makes jewelry, or, there s some people that make other crafts where there s assembly involved where you re buying parts or components and you need to figure out a price.

Livingston: So is PayPal in a sense a security company Levchin: I think a good way to describe PayPal is: a security company pretend-

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